Kde4

megamaced · 08-02-2008, 11:11 PM

Has anyone here tried KDE4 yet? I must admit I ditched KDE recently, mostly due to Kubuntu's poor implementation of KDE and the fact that I really wanted to use the Ubuntu family, regardless of the desktop environemt. My curiosity gets the better of me, and KDE is still close to my heart even though I moved over to Ubuntu GNOME.

Most of the reviews I've read basically say "it's not ready yet", but the "groundwork has been laid for the future". What are your thoughts and where do you see KDE4.x in a year's time? Will it be good enough to mount a real challenge for your average Joe user?

Anti-Trend · 08-02-2008, 10:20 PM

The KDE team has traditionally been known for better releases with tighter code as time goes forward. However, I definitely think that KDE 4 is not ready for mainstream usage. I also *hate* the new kmenu system, along with many other critics. That said, I have confidence that they'll fix these things up in the course of the next few point releases. Until then, KDE 3.x for me.

megamaced · 08-02-2008, 10:42 PM

Does it bother you that KDE4 is taking an "gnome approach" by reducing the number of configuration options? One standout change that really gets my goat is the fact that Dolphin is the new file manager and Konqueror is now reduced to just a web browser (by default). Personally I have always preferred the "power users" approach and Konqueror for me was the swiss army knife.

My personal opinion is that KDE4 was realised too early. Now I know the developers have always stated that KDE 4.0 was only ever going to be a "Developers Release" but I still think it's a bad idea. Linux is no longer an operating system for bored kids living in their bedrooms 24 hours a day. We need to move on from there and release when ready for the masses. What kind of a message is KDE4 going to send out for those first time users? "We are almost there but not quite. In the meantime continue using Windows".

I am going to get a lot of hate mail for this, but I believe the best way for Linux to move forward is to have one mainstream desktop environment only. If everybody was working on one desktop environment only, imagine the progress that could be made. Why bother writting the same thing in GTK and QT when you only have to write it once? Linux would be much better, much simpler for it.

I think that another reason for me switching to GNOME was the fact that I no longer know where KDE is going long term. Inevitably I believe that only one desktop environment will survive. If Linux is going to hit the mass consumer market, there can be no other way. GNOME is (so far) the preferred choice of desktop OS and from a commercial point of view it makes sense to use it). Personally i'd rather have choice, despite my arguments put forward, but we all know this isn't really an option. I see Ubuntu and I see a desktop environment that is fully integrated, looks sweet and just works. I see Kubuntu (for example) and I see a distro that is far behind, clinging on to life.

I'd love to see KDE4 progress and better GNOME, but is it too late?

Anti-Trend · 08-02-2008, 11:02 PM

There are a lot of things that bother me about KDE as a KDE user. Most of these, at least with KDE 3.x, are not fundamental problems. They're simply superficial problems that could easily be resolved if somebody with a clear sense of direction lead the look & feel department. For instance, the default sound theme in KDE simply blows. The stupid thing is that KDE ships with a whole myriad of truly great sound effects that would give it a great aural quality to surpass even OS X. However, the sounds they've chosen as defaults are horrible. The biggest argument from KDE devs is that since it's so flexible, you can make it look and feel however you want. This is true. But that's no reason for the entire look and feel out-of-the-box to be a bit like if Hellen Keller had selected them.

megamaced · 08-02-2008, 11:21 PM

As far as I am concerned, the ultimate Linux distribution is the distribution that doesn't require you to use the command line "at all". This is not a personal preference because I find the command line very effiecient. But for the every day man, using the command line is not an option. On this basis, Ubuntu should be praised. Ubuntu IS the distribution for the everyman. Ubuntu Hardy Heron (released this April) will be THE Linux distribution to go for. We are all geeks on HWF - neither you nor I can deny that

, but we all know that for desktop Linux to grow, we must make things simpler for the average Joe. Ubuntu IS the only distribution trying to makes things easier.

Anti-Trend · 09-02-2008, 12:12 AM

I don't know about that. I routinely work with users who are not competent to install any OS, meaning not Linux, Mac OS or Windows. But they can use Debian or RHEL just fine if it's setup for them.

While I recognize the need for a "Linux for dummies" distro like Ubuntu, I still think you can get better results with a "real" Linux distro installed by a geek (like you or I).

Addis · 09-02-2008, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by megamaced

Does it bother you that KDE4 is taking an "gnome approach" by reducing the number of configuration options? One standout change that really gets my goat is the fact that Dolphin is the new file manager and Konqueror is now reduced to just a web browser (by default). Personally I have always preferred the "power users" approach and Konqueror for me was the swiss army knife.

This was one of the things that annoyed users of KDE3. How Konqueror was a swiss army knife that wasn't really fantastic at file management. The point of Dolphin was to create a file manager, and leave web browsing to Konqueror. This was done, and now some complain about the separation, so the developers can't win can they?

Quote:

My personal opinion is that KDE4 was realised too early. Now I know the developers have always stated that KDE 4.0 was only ever going to be a "Developers Release" but I still think it's a bad idea. Linux is no longer an operating system for bored kids living in their bedrooms 24 hours a day. We need to move on from there and release when ready for the masses. What kind of a message is KDE4 going to send out for those first time users? "We are almost there but not quite. In the meantime continue using Windows".

Replace "bored kids living in their bedrooms 24 hours a day" with technical community and I'll agree with you. You won't see KDE4 being included in distro releases anytime soon because as AT said it still isn't ready. Despite the 4.0 release it was still too early to be a desktop usable by the masses.

Quote:

I am going to get a lot of hate mail for this, but I believe the best way for Linux to move forward is to have one mainstream desktop environment only. If everybody was working on one desktop environment only, imagine the progress that could be made. Why bother writting the same thing in GTK and QT when you only have to write it once? Linux would be much better, much simpler for it.

This isn't going to happen anytime soon, and there have been many discussions on whether unifying would be beneficial in the long run. Would having one distribution be better? All I can say right now is that Qt pisses over GTK so much it's beyond funny. No Qt/KDE developer will switch to GTK.

Quote:

I think that another reason for me switching to GNOME was the fact that I no longer know where KDE is going long term. Inevitably I believe that only one desktop environment will survive. If Linux is going to hit the mass consumer market, there can be no other way.

I think we will have multiple desktop environments for the forseeable future, we have had for many years, and it will continue. It may be, as you imply, that Linux will never hit the masses because there will never be just one DE. There is more chance of that happening then KDE or GNOME dying out.

Quote:

GNOME is (so far) the preferred choice of desktop OS and from a commercial point of view it makes sense to use it). Personally i'd rather have choice, despite my arguments put forward, but we all know this isn't really an option. I see Ubuntu and I see a desktop environment that is fully integrated, looks sweet and just works. I see Kubuntu (for example) and I see a distro that is far behind, clinging on to life.

Then stop using Kubuntu. It's annoying how Kubuntu is shown as the standard for KDE distributions.

Quote:

I'd love to see KDE4 progress and better GNOME, but is it too late?

KDE is open source, and as long as there users and people who are willing to contribute then it won't die out. Far smaller, lesser used projects exist and do fine.

Quote:

As far as I am concerned, the ultimate Linux distribution is the distribution that doesn't require you to use the command line "at all". This is not a personal preference because I find the command line very effiecient. But for the every day man, using the command line is not an option. On this basis, Ubuntu should be praised. Ubuntu IS the distribution for the everyman. Ubuntu Hardy Heron (released this April) will be THE Linux distribution to go for.

I dread the day the title of the "ultimate distribution" is unanimously assigned to the distribution which discourages use of the command line, and relies on GUIs for everything.

It's not that I don't agree with making things easier for the user, I want Linux to succeed as much as you do. But it would annoy me if software developers focussed solely on ease of use, and "feature hiding/assuming user is an idiot" and detracted from innovation. It would be akin to say...selling one's sole. Ironically, there isn't even great monetary benefit from doing this, since it's open source. Innovation and new ideas is what KDE4 is. I totally agree that there are some flaws in it, and I'm not a big fan of the new menu either. It's still raw, but it's trying something new. Plasma, Solid, Phonon etc are all brand new, changing the architecture of KDE completely.

Until some of the issues are sorted, I'm going to stick with KDE 3.5, but I'll routinely check in on my build to see how things are moving along.

P.S can we stop all this Ubuntu brownnosing.

Swansen · 12-02-2008, 02:38 AM

wow, this is really ironic, i was just going to start a thread, why is Ubuntu so popular, i mean, its even in Firefox's dictionary. On a side note??? mega, where is the hell did all that come from, i'm going to have to start calling you Swansen or something. Well, i haven't really been up on KDE 4.0 recently but it looked really promising, and it suppose to be uses something like 40% less memory, thats pretty sweet(minus its other flaws) Yeah, after using Gnome for awhile now, i've found it to be really annoying, just the layout and general navigation is less appealing than KDE. That said, Addis, if Linux is to ever grow past where it is rate now, the word on the street needs to be, oh yeah, Linux is great, just like Windows, only better. Not what it is rate now, yeah, its really cool, but there all that code stuff. Thats just the way it is, now i'm not saying the command line isn't great, and really helpful in situations, but it shouldn't be a must, nor am i saying it should be gotten rid of. There should just be a very easy to use graphical end for every command. On a final note, i find KDE to be a lot prettier.

Addis · 12-02-2008, 03:12 PM

I agree with you that things should be made easy for the user who doesn't want to use command line. It's just that I would find it a shame if in pursuit of that, the traditional methods were neglected.

megamaced · 24-02-2008, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swansen

On a side note??? mega, where is the hell did all that come from, i'm going to have to start calling you Swansen or something.

I am just gauging opinion on the matter. I used to run KDE3 full time. In fact, KDE was the first Linux desktop environment I ever used. I still respect the project massively, but don't necessarily agree with some of their project goals anymore.

KDE 4 is an interesting release and as I haven't tested it yet, I am curious.

08-02-2008, 11:11 PM	#1 (permalink) Top
megamaced Geek Geek Geek! Join Date: Nov 2005 Age: 24 Male Posts: 3,467 Times Helpful: 352 My Mood: Fine Status: Offline My Computer	Kde4 Has anyone here tried KDE4 yet? I must admit I ditched KDE recently, mostly due to Kubuntu's poor implementation of KDE and the fact that I really wanted to use the Ubuntu family, regardless of the desktop environemt. My curiosity gets the better of me, and KDE is still close to my heart even though I moved over to Ubuntu GNOME. Most of the reviews I've read basically say "it's not ready yet", but the "groundwork has been laid for the future". What are your thoughts and where do you see KDE4.x in a year's time? Will it be good enough to mount a real challenge for your average Joe user? __________________ "A computer is like air conditioning: it becomes useless when you open windows". ~Linus Torvalds

08-02-2008, 10:20 PM	#2 (permalink) Top
Anti-Trend Nonconformist Geek Join Date: Oct 2003 Age: 27 Male Posts: 4,882 Times Helpful: 538 Status: Offline My Computer	The KDE team has traditionally been known for better releases with tighter code as time goes forward. However, I definitely think that KDE 4 is not ready for mainstream usage. I also hate the new kmenu system, along with many other critics. That said, I have confidence that they'll fix these things up in the course of the next few point releases. Until then, KDE 3.x for me. __________________ See My Desktop \| Try Linux \| Install Linux \| Visit My Server \| Support Hardware Forums \| Easily rip DVDs in Linux \| Remember Everything

08-02-2008, 10:42 PM	#3 (permalink) Top
megamaced Geek Geek Geek! Join Date: Nov 2005 Age: 24 Male Posts: 3,467 Times Helpful: 352 My Mood: Fine Status: Offline My Computer	Does it bother you that KDE4 is taking an "gnome approach" by reducing the number of configuration options? One standout change that really gets my goat is the fact that Dolphin is the new file manager and Konqueror is now reduced to just a web browser (by default). Personally I have always preferred the "power users" approach and Konqueror for me was the swiss army knife. My personal opinion is that KDE4 was realised too early. Now I know the developers have always stated that KDE 4.0 was only ever going to be a "Developers Release" but I still think it's a bad idea. Linux is no longer an operating system for bored kids living in their bedrooms 24 hours a day. We need to move on from there and release when ready for the masses. What kind of a message is KDE4 going to send out for those first time users? "We are almost there but not quite. In the meantime continue using Windows". I am going to get a lot of hate mail for this, but I believe the best way for Linux to move forward is to have one mainstream desktop environment only. If everybody was working on one desktop environment only, imagine the progress that could be made. Why bother writting the same thing in GTK and QT when you only have to write it once? Linux would be much better, much simpler for it. I think that another reason for me switching to GNOME was the fact that I no longer know where KDE is going long term. Inevitably I believe that only one desktop environment will survive. If Linux is going to hit the mass consumer market, there can be no other way. GNOME is (so far) the preferred choice of desktop OS and from a commercial point of view it makes sense to use it). Personally i'd rather have choice, despite my arguments put forward, but we all know this isn't really an option. I see Ubuntu and I see a desktop environment that is fully integrated, looks sweet and just works. I see Kubuntu (for example) and I see a distro that is far behind, clinging on to life. I'd love to see KDE4 progress and better GNOME, but is it too late? __________________ "A computer is like air conditioning: it becomes useless when you open windows". ~Linus Torvalds

08-02-2008, 11:02 PM	#4 (permalink) Top
Anti-Trend Nonconformist Geek Join Date: Oct 2003 Age: 27 Male Posts: 4,882 Times Helpful: 538 Status: Offline My Computer	There are a lot of things that bother me about KDE as a KDE user. Most of these, at least with KDE 3.x, are not fundamental problems. They're simply superficial problems that could easily be resolved if somebody with a clear sense of direction lead the look & feel department. For instance, the default sound theme in KDE simply blows. The stupid thing is that KDE ships with a whole myriad of truly great sound effects that would give it a great aural quality to surpass even OS X. However, the sounds they've chosen as defaults are horrible. The biggest argument from KDE devs is that since it's so flexible, you can make it look and feel however you want. This is true. But that's no reason for the entire look and feel out-of-the-box to be a bit like if Hellen Keller had selected them. __________________ See My Desktop \| Try Linux \| Install Linux \| Visit My Server \| Support Hardware Forums \| Easily rip DVDs in Linux \| Remember Everything

08-02-2008, 11:21 PM	#5 (permalink) Top
megamaced Geek Geek Geek! Join Date: Nov 2005 Age: 24 Male Posts: 3,467 Times Helpful: 352 My Mood: Fine Status: Offline My Computer	As far as I am concerned, the ultimate Linux distribution is the distribution that doesn't require you to use the command line "at all". This is not a personal preference because I find the command line very effiecient. But for the every day man, using the command line is not an option. On this basis, Ubuntu should be praised. Ubuntu IS the distribution for the everyman. Ubuntu Hardy Heron (released this April) will be THE Linux distribution to go for. We are all geeks on HWF - neither you nor I can deny that , but we all know that for desktop Linux to grow, we must make things simpler for the average Joe. Ubuntu IS the only distribution trying to makes things easier. __________________ "A computer is like air conditioning: it becomes useless when you open windows". ~Linus Torvalds

09-02-2008, 12:12 AM	#6 (permalink) Top
Anti-Trend Nonconformist Geek Join Date: Oct 2003 Age: 27 Male Posts: 4,882 Times Helpful: 538 Status: Offline My Computer	I don't know about that. I routinely work with users who are not competent to install any OS, meaning not Linux, Mac OS or Windows. But they can use Debian or RHEL just fine if it's setup for them. While I recognize the need for a "Linux for dummies" distro like Ubuntu, I still think you can get better results with a "real" Linux distro installed by a geek (like you or I). __________________ See My Desktop \| Try Linux \| Install Linux \| Visit My Server \| Support Hardware Forums \| Easily rip DVDs in Linux \| Remember Everything

12-02-2008, 03:12 PM	#9 (permalink) Top
Addis The King Join Date: Jan 2004 Age: 18 Male Posts: 5,255 Times Helpful: 403 My Mood: Drunk Status: Offline My Computer	I agree with you that things should be made easy for the user who doesn't want to use command line. It's just that I would find it a shame if in pursuit of that, the traditional methods were neglected. __________________ Never trust a program you don't have the source code for. My website \| Powerful Desktop Linux \| Linux for human beings \| Linux for power users \| Linux for ricers

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