daisycutter
Geek
so, just a quick poll... what does everyone think bout whats going down in the sraelis VS lebanon saga?
the bombs over lebanon
- Thread starter daisycutter
- Start date
Karanislove
It's D Grav80 Of Luv
I've heard rumers that America will take part in this on 17th Sept. and then world war will start in a big amount.......
Big B
HWF Godfather
Last I heard, the US isn't going to be actually helping. Israel is an ally, but I think at this point, we won't be doing troop support. Hezbollah needs to be taken out, and at this point, Israel should be able to take care of the problem. A peace would be nice, but the main issue with that is that the countries or terrorist organizations want the destruction of Israel.
Anti-Trend
Nonconformist Geek
This is true, but has not changed over the last 50 years. Israel's old enemies are also her current ones. However, it is interesting that Lebanon is right in the path of the giant oil pipeline that the US and our western allies have been planning and implementing. Maybe it is that simple; war for oil. If you disregard everything you've heard and look at the actions rather than the words, I think it's pretty conceivable.
UnSeEn
Mayor McCheese
It's quite sick, really. It seems that for every one Israeli casualty, they must create ten Lebanese casualties, mostly including women and children. A huge number of non-military casualties have happened so far, and it's saddening. And the saddest part is, the US is backing Israel, supplying them with weapons so they can continue to murder Lebanon. I think that the US isn't trying to stop terrorism...they're creating it.
Big B
HWF Godfather
The history of the ME has been less than peaceful. One issue is that Hezbollah, along with other groups, isn't looking for a ceasefire or peace. Israel isn't after Lebanon, they're after Hezbollah. Unfortunately, they're residing in Lebanon, and I don't expect any country to continue to just take hits. Hezbollah isn't interested in a ceasefire, they're interested in Israel being destroyed. Does the US have an intrest in ME oil? Of course and that has to have some motivation. However, you've got Hezbollah parading around reporters to only view select items and snap shots of dead children. Hezbollah is also getting supplies from Iran, who is for destroying Israel.
Besides oil, you do need to understand that most of the surrounding countries want nothing more than the utter destruction of Isreal. You're not going to get peace with them. Lebanon itself isn't the problem, but it's weak enough that it can't stand up to Hezbollah.
Besides oil, you do need to understand that most of the surrounding countries want nothing more than the utter destruction of Isreal. You're not going to get peace with them. Lebanon itself isn't the problem, but it's weak enough that it can't stand up to Hezbollah.
I agree with Big B...and those countries who support, back, or agree with Israel in ANY way get dragged into a conflict in some form, either by armed conflict(war) or by terrorisim(see 9/11, Madrid). It is too bad Hezbollah has taken the position of wanting the total destruction of Israel, it has caused Lebanon to pay a horrible price that it should not have been asked to pay.
I respect those who think this is always about war for oil, but I disagree. When the US aligned itself with Israel 50+ years ago, oil was nowhere in the picture, and they became a trusted ally(as well as other countries in the region) over time. You don't abandon an ally in tough times...
One more thing...the US cannot get involved into this Lebanon conflict, they do not have the necessary size fighting force avalable to wage the "proper" battle...
I respect those who think this is always about war for oil, but I disagree. When the US aligned itself with Israel 50+ years ago, oil was nowhere in the picture, and they became a trusted ally(as well as other countries in the region) over time. You don't abandon an ally in tough times...
One more thing...the US cannot get involved into this Lebanon conflict, they do not have the necessary size fighting force avalable to wage the "proper" battle...
Anti-Trend
Nonconformist Geek
Let me begin by saying that I'm not a liberal, and I don't see conspiracies behind every bush (no pun there). I also wholeheartedly agree with our allgences with Israel, and that we should support them. But the timing of this incursion is highly, blatently suspect. Also, Rice has already told the press that we are hoping to "isolate Syria and Iran" with this endevour, so it's not really about Lybia in the bigger scheme of things. I don't want to make this about "pro government" or "anti-government", but about what the truth is, and what the larger overall picture is. As for my opinion, I think that we (i.e. the US) put Israel up to this.
I understand your points Trend...seemingly since the JFK assaination, it has been tough for people to decide on whether or not things are as they seem, or is there some sort of grand conspiriacy in it all. I cannot blame those who have strong feelings in either side of the conflict...Myself, I am much the conservative, and trust the US government, but being part of this forum and discussing this with cool people around the world, respecting all views here is most important...
I would hope that in the ME, cooler heads will prevail!
I would hope that in the ME, cooler heads will prevail!
Big B
HWF Godfather
I also classify myself as a conservative, but not to the extent that I believe everything that comes out of the Bush administration. On the flip-side, I don't see Bush as the devil incarnate who deliberately put us into war, although the situation has been exacerbated quite a bit. Being highly suspect doesn't mean the situation is guilty. Coincidences do happen, and this could be one of them. On the flip-side, yes, if this is strictly just for oil (which I think there's at least some motivation that should be factored in).
I do think that, like AT pointed out, this is involving some strategy. We need to put the squeeze on Iran, and at some point would've done it anyway. The timing is suspect, although I think we're going to get involved with Iran at some point. I do hope that we can resolve this peacefully, but given the stance of Iran, it's more likely to escalate.
I do think that, like AT pointed out, this is involving some strategy. We need to put the squeeze on Iran, and at some point would've done it anyway. The timing is suspect, although I think we're going to get involved with Iran at some point. I do hope that we can resolve this peacefully, but given the stance of Iran, it's more likely to escalate.
sabashuali
Ani Ma'amin
Hi all
I was a bit surprised (not sure why) to find this thread.
As, I think, the only (ex) Israeli, I though I might add some thoughts here.
I left Israel ten years ago now but believe me when I say that not much has changed since. This place here is too small to go through the whole saga but the recent violence is just a symptom of a terrible problem - too many countries in the world still do not recognise the right of the state of Israel to exist!
I have to admit that when it comes to aggression Israel is no saint.
As with a lot of democratic states, Israel was formed through armed struggle.
However, to this day, the struggle is very much still there, some as a direct result of Israel mis-governing (and this terms is used, uber lightly) of it's assets after the 1967, six days war and the dreadful 'victory' of 1973.
To cut a long story short, Israel is largely to blame for the poor relations with it's neighbours.
I am trying not to make this into a history lesson, believe me....
AAAnyway, The recent violence is just another attempt by a terrorist group (and it is one, anyhow you look at it), spurred and armed by the two most dangerous forces in the ME today, to lure Israel to a brutal and bloody mess. In this sense they have won the game. Hezbollah is an organisation which does not care much for human life, its own as well. Its "soldiers" are mujahedeens, ready to die for their cause. This is very well exploited by Syria nad Iran. Hell, proxy war is a genius idea.
The attack on the Israeli patrol, on Israeli soil and the kidnapping of the Israeli soldiers should have created a reaction but was this reaction right? Israel is all too quick to exhaust or dismiss diplomatic solutions.
In this instance the government felt an uncontrollable urge to lash out in frustration, against a puppet Lebanese government which allowed a terrorist organisation to literally form a new army in its own territory - southern Lebanon. So deep run the involvement of Hezbollah in southern Lebanon, that it is, in many eyes, THE governing body of that area. It is in other words impossible to separate the two. Hezbollah is here to stay. In this sense All three allies, Syria, Iran and Hezbollah (although Hezbollah, knowingly or not, are only errand boys to the formers) have scored a very crucial victory.
It is my own belief that Israel should have paused to think. Yes, it lost four or five soldiers to start with and took a nasty slap in the face.
However, they could have demanded, by ultimatum, a UN resolution (ironically Israel is protected by a number of these but is also one of the worst offenders…) for the return of the soldiers, the disarmament of Hezbollah and the true, complete liberation of Lebanon from any foreign envolvement in the running of its state.
Israel lost! And it troubles me to say it.
They should have never started this war. Even when started, they should have concentrated on dealing directly with Hezbollah and not punish the people of Lebanon for the impotence of their government. Further more, until the ceasefire; the Israeli governments expected goals are still vague…. This could have been an opportunity to help Lebanon (along with several other Arab nations), which in the first day or two of the war, were quite happy for the Israeli army to eradicate Hezbollah.
For the sceptics who think that Israel response was OTT, just a quick reminder – in 1982 Israel invaded Lebanon.
Within one week it was at the gates of Beirut losing in the process a tad fewer than 400 soldiers. Behind it was no sign of any arms, be it terrorist, Lebanese or Syrian.
I think that Israel, in this recent operation, right or wrong, justified or criminal, was extremely restrained.
I was a bit surprised (not sure why) to find this thread.
As, I think, the only (ex) Israeli, I though I might add some thoughts here.
I left Israel ten years ago now but believe me when I say that not much has changed since. This place here is too small to go through the whole saga but the recent violence is just a symptom of a terrible problem - too many countries in the world still do not recognise the right of the state of Israel to exist!
I have to admit that when it comes to aggression Israel is no saint.
As with a lot of democratic states, Israel was formed through armed struggle.
However, to this day, the struggle is very much still there, some as a direct result of Israel mis-governing (and this terms is used, uber lightly) of it's assets after the 1967, six days war and the dreadful 'victory' of 1973.
To cut a long story short, Israel is largely to blame for the poor relations with it's neighbours.
I am trying not to make this into a history lesson, believe me....
AAAnyway, The recent violence is just another attempt by a terrorist group (and it is one, anyhow you look at it), spurred and armed by the two most dangerous forces in the ME today, to lure Israel to a brutal and bloody mess. In this sense they have won the game. Hezbollah is an organisation which does not care much for human life, its own as well. Its "soldiers" are mujahedeens, ready to die for their cause. This is very well exploited by Syria nad Iran. Hell, proxy war is a genius idea.
The attack on the Israeli patrol, on Israeli soil and the kidnapping of the Israeli soldiers should have created a reaction but was this reaction right? Israel is all too quick to exhaust or dismiss diplomatic solutions.
In this instance the government felt an uncontrollable urge to lash out in frustration, against a puppet Lebanese government which allowed a terrorist organisation to literally form a new army in its own territory - southern Lebanon. So deep run the involvement of Hezbollah in southern Lebanon, that it is, in many eyes, THE governing body of that area. It is in other words impossible to separate the two. Hezbollah is here to stay. In this sense All three allies, Syria, Iran and Hezbollah (although Hezbollah, knowingly or not, are only errand boys to the formers) have scored a very crucial victory.
It is my own belief that Israel should have paused to think. Yes, it lost four or five soldiers to start with and took a nasty slap in the face.
However, they could have demanded, by ultimatum, a UN resolution (ironically Israel is protected by a number of these but is also one of the worst offenders…) for the return of the soldiers, the disarmament of Hezbollah and the true, complete liberation of Lebanon from any foreign envolvement in the running of its state.
Israel lost! And it troubles me to say it.
They should have never started this war. Even when started, they should have concentrated on dealing directly with Hezbollah and not punish the people of Lebanon for the impotence of their government. Further more, until the ceasefire; the Israeli governments expected goals are still vague…. This could have been an opportunity to help Lebanon (along with several other Arab nations), which in the first day or two of the war, were quite happy for the Israeli army to eradicate Hezbollah.
For the sceptics who think that Israel response was OTT, just a quick reminder – in 1982 Israel invaded Lebanon.
Within one week it was at the gates of Beirut losing in the process a tad fewer than 400 soldiers. Behind it was no sign of any arms, be it terrorist, Lebanese or Syrian.
I think that Israel, in this recent operation, right or wrong, justified or criminal, was extremely restrained.
Egaladeist
I am the Eg Man
The fact is Zionism should have went with their first choice...Argentina.
sabashuali
Ani Ma'amin
I am not sure if you are joking (well, I hope you are) or not but if my memory serves me rightly, Theodor Herzel suggested Uganda to the first Zionist congress. Thankfully, the idea was rejected. Joke or no joke, I do not understand this fact which you suggest. The fact is that historicaly, the state of Israel is exactly where it should be!!!