Help building Dream Machine 2004!

S

SirDeity

Big Geek
Hello, everyone! You didn't think that I'd stay away forever, did you? :chk: It's time for me to build a new power house! Let's have some fun with this one! :good:

I could use an update as to what the best hardware on the market are. If something better is due for release within the next two or three months, then please list both (best current hardware and best future hardware) That includes the following (an AMD machine for mostly gaming):

- CPU
Is it the AMD Athlon 64 FX-51 processor that is currently the fastest?

- Motherboard
Is the best mobo still the Asus SK8N or is there something better for the 64-bit technology? List as many of the 'best' options as you think should be considered. Descriptions wanted! :p

- Memory
Is it still the Corsair 1GB 400Mhz PC-3200 DDR memory sticks? I'll want at least 2GB of memory. I might go for 3GB if I can afford it. Do they go faster than PC-3200? Would I still be able to get the best motherboard with faster memory? What's the best possible combination?

- Video Card
Is it the Radeon XT? What's the absolute fastest; best video card on the market? The video card's use will be primarily for gaming. I don't need the All-In-Wonder package - unless there's a new video card that is both the fastest AND comes with those features.

- Sound Card
This is another important one. Is the best (for gaming) still the Creative Labs SB Audigy 2 ZS Platinum?

- Hard Drives
I'm going to need two hard drives, one large one and one smaller one. The large one will be for gaming and other entertainment related stuff and the smaller one would be for work/programming related stuff. I was thinking the larger one could be a 250GB hard drive and the smaller one could be an 80GB hard drive. However, I want them to be fast. Is 7,200rpm still the fastest? What brand should I purchase?

Also, should I use RAID? I don't know anything about RAID. Can someone give me a quick lesson? Do I need it? Should I use it? Is it fun to use or just an inconvenience? Is it too expensive (typically used only for high end servers; thousands of dollars)?

- DVD/CD Player
I have an old DVD-ROM, but if the technology is obsolete and I could get a faster one, then it'd be worth doing. Is the best still the Pioneer 16x DVD-ROM? What would you recommend?

- DVD/CD Burner
I have an old Sony 12x/8x/32x MultiRead CD-RW. Is that too slow? Are there much better out there? Is the best still the Plextor 52x32x52 CD-RW? What would you recommend?

- Case & Cooling
I love stylish cases, like the one's at www.voodoopc.com and www.go-l.com. Unfortunately, you can't purchase their cases separately. My primary concern is cooling. I wouldn't hesitate to pay $1,500.00 dollars just for a great case with great cooling (water cooling or whatever works BEST).

An old PC (over $3,000 dollars) of mine overheated. Since then, I've been extremely cautious with overheating. I don't care if it's not necessary. I want the absolute best cooling - will spend up to $1,500.00 just for cooling and case. The cheaper the better, though! :D Go ahead and assume that the computer will be on 24/7. Looks are important, but not as important as cooling.

- Monitor
I recently read that monitors are good in the gaming world for their 'ms' response time. What does 'ms' stand for? I have an old Multiscan E400 Sony Trinitron Monitor. I don't know what the ms response time is on it. I'll have to do a google search to find out.

Anyway, would the dream machine that I'm currently working towards building work well with this monitor? Should I upgrade my monitor? It's important that my monitor doesn't lag or act noticeably slow. I play the occasional FPS game and especially in those, it's essential that nothing slows down your performance. Would you recommend I purchase a new monitor?

I heard the fastest is the 21-ms response time. Would that be the best option? Would there be a noticable difference? How much do those generally cost and which one would you recommend? I'd like the monitor to be at least 21' inches. I don't care about TFT (thin) Panel unless the price difference isn't much; if there's only a $200.00 - $300.00 hundred dollar difference, then I'll go ahead and get the TFT (thin) Panel.

I need some lessons on monitors! Educate me! ;)
 
pc 4000 ddr ram is now being made
the fastest hard drive i know of is 15,000rpm, damn fast.
the rest-Big B should help you out with everything.
 
Probably quite a bit if he's considering A64.

CPU: Personally, if I were going to go for a 64-bit setup, I'd wait until socket 939 hits, since that will have a longer lifespan and should be here within a couple of months.
Athlon FX is in socket 754 and Athlon 64/Opteron is in Socket 940 (A64 to be in Socket 939 when it hits).

Mobo: Haven't tested anything in the 64-bit area personally, but you have several options to chose from. Asus is a good choice, but if you want IDE RAID (I personally use them just for extra IDE channels and don't use the RAID function), you might take a look at Gigabyte's offerings. MSI is another good choice. Pretty much all motherboards coming out have SATA on them, regardless of price.

RAM: Right now you need to get Registered DDR for any Athlon 64-bit CPU, but that will change when Socket 939 hits. Reg DDR is only available up to PC2700 speeds right now, and although you can get PC4000 (DDR500), right now you run the risk of it giving you headaches firstly, and also you're not going to be running it that fast, so PC3200 will suffice. Most DDR (KingMax is a current exception) higher than PC3200 speeds is just PC3200 that's been tested to run at the higher rated speed. There's nothing wrong with this, but you won't be able to reap the benefits without overclocking.

Video Card: Currently, it's a toss up between the Radeon 9800XT and the GeForce FX 5950. The one thing that I'd go for the 9800XT over the GFFX is the Direct X 9 implementation being better on the 9800XT. Depending on what reviews you read, the 5950 will come out on top, however that is likely to change once we see DX9 games coming out in full force (i.e. Doom3, Half-Life2).

Sound. I'm not all that revved up about Creative anymore. I've found cheaper cards for my needs that sound fine to me. Some motherboards, like those from Chaintech and Albatron come with VIA's own Vinyl Audio chip that a number of cards are using today, like M-Audio's Revolution 7.1 and Terratac's Audiotron (I think that's the name).
I've not used Chaintech or Albatron, but they seem to have some decent boards from what I read, and they run a bit less than the likes of Asus, Abit, and Gigabyte.

Hard Drives: Most IDE and SATA drives top out at 7200 RPM. The lone exception here is Western Digital's Raptor series of SATA drives that run at 10,000 RPM. You can go to SCSI, which starts off at 7200RPM, and most drives run at 10,000RPM. Seagate's Cheetah drives run at 15,000RPM. If you have the cash to burn, SCSI is the best. Unless you go with something special from SuperMicro or Tyan, you'll need to get a SCSI card.
RAID--you don't need to use this feature. You'll have RAID 0 and 1 available to you in most cases. RAID 0 makes 2 hard drives appear as 2x (size of the smallest drive). If one dies, you'd better have your data backed up as have of it's on the dead drive. The advantage here is speed, but you have nothing covering your ass if shit happens.
RAID 1 takes two drives and writes to both of them so if one dies you're out a hard drive, not your data. The downside here is that you'll lose some speed. You can get a separate controller card with cache on it, but that can add another $100-400 PCI card.
For SATA/IDE, Western Digital is pretty good. Seagate makes the only native SATA hard drives out right now; all others make an IDE drive with an IDE->SATA bridge.
For SCSI, Seagate is king, but Fujitsu is supposed to make some very sweet drives too.

CD/DVD/-RW. Plextor is coming out with a 12x DVD burner that is SATA ready.
While they're not speed demons, if they're still working I'd keep 'em around. If you really want to upgrade them, leave this part till last since it's not a critical part of the build if they're still working. Plextor is considered king, but Pioneer and Sony are good too. Personally, I like Toshiba. No frills, but they work well.

Cases: I like my Chieftech/Antec SX1030 case. It's a popular case design thats still pretty easy to find. It accomodates 4 case fans, has removable hard drive cages, and uses rails for the 5.25" bays. You don't need a bazillion fans as much as proper airflow through the case. This is one thing I'd go to a PC shop and look at. Proper ventilation is key. Lian Li cases are nice too. Aluminum ones are a little ligher than steel, but when you've got all the stuff installed, it really doesn't make a whole lot of difference at that point.

If you're not overclocking, the retail CPU heatsink is fine.

Power Supply. Pay good money here. Antec and Sparkle are good here, but if you really want to drop some cash on a top PSU, PC Power & Cooling have some really tight ones. Again, they're going to run more than any other brand out there, but they are the pinnacle of PSU's.

Monitors. I believe Viewsonic has some flat-panels with a glass front. Of what I've seen, I still prefer your older CRT's. Flat screen of course. Samsung has some of the crispest CRT's out there, IMO.
 
Not including the price of the Monitor, I'm planning to spend anywhere from $4,000.00 - to $6,000.00 dollars. That's assuming I can't get everything I want for less.


BIG_B:
If you were in a competition and were given up to $6,000.00 dollars funding, and to win the competition you had to build the absolute best gaming machine (Fast. Reliable. Long Lasting.), what would it be? List the hardware starting with the CPU.

(Please tell me more about the upcoming 64-bit processor. Is it supposed to blow the others out of the water? How much better will it be? It's going to take some convincing if I'm going to wait two months to build my machine. Throw me some URLs to read, too.

You are saying that if I were to buy the 64 FX, it wouldn't last long? I don't know anything about sockets. Can you give me a lesson on socketry (hehe)? Is it the higher the socket the longer they last? If the Athlon FX has lower socket than the Athlon 64, then why is the Athlon FX faster? The Athlon 64 would last longer?

What are IDE channels? I don't think I'll need RAID. I'll just get decently fast hard drives.

There aren't any PC3200 registered memory? What is 'registered' memory and why does it need to be registered to work with a 64-bit chip?

I'll definitely go for the 9800XT. Out of curiosity, when will the next best video card be released?

What are the prices ranges for the various speeds of hard drives? For example, how much are the Raptors and the SCSI drives? The WD Raptors sound awesome. I like the idea of going for the 10,000rpm drives. They shouldn't be as expensive as the 15,000rpm drives, but should be better than the 7,200rpm drives. What are the costs? Figure for one 80GB and one 250GB (or highest - up to 250GB). I don't think I'll want RAID.


This is an ugly (dull) looking case: http://www.computer-hardware-istore.com/ANTEC-ANTEC-SX1030-MIDTOWER-CASE-300W-ATX.asp

I'd like to invest more than $100.00 in a case. I like the idea of being able to see my computer's innards through a glass side panel. I also like florescent lighting and so forth. Also, are you honestly certain that fans and good airflow is as good as water cooling? Remember, I want to be safe; no risks in terms of overheating. I could try water cooling, heat sinks (arctic silver?), and fans if possible. I want my computer to be so cold that I could store my popsicles in it (hehe)! Also, let's consider the material used for the case. Isn't aluminum supposed to be better than other alternatives (or is it just a matter of weight)? What's the best options? I was told by a voodoo representative that the 64 FX processor is so hot, that their F: 50 models can't even use them!

Also, I heard that a new type of case is soon to be released (to keep up with the heat from modern hardware technology). Is this true?

What does 'PSU' stand for?

You didn't talk about the 'ms' stuff. What monitors would you recommend? It's a little hazy, so just to be safe, would you describe the differences between the TFT and the CTR monitors? I often get flat panel and flat screen monitors confused. Of all the monitors you'd recommend, which has the fastest (at least 21 inches) ms (isn't 21 the fastest ms)? Also, I'm still eager to know more about ms speeds. Is the difference noticeable? Would it not make any sense to upgrade my monitor (would I notice a difference)? The monitor I use now works fine. It has a couple very faint gray lines across it, but I've never had any problems with it (noticeable ones, anyway). I really want to know if this monitor will in any way constrain the performance of the hardware I'm about to purchase.

Lastly, would I notice a different in the speed of the DVD-ROM drive if I were to upgrade? Does it in any way affect the speed of a game's performance? Does it only affect the initial speed (when opening the program from the CD/DVD disc)?


As always, thank-you for the help! By the way, where's my other friend, Harrack? Come on in bro! :p
 
Add-on:
Since 64-bit technology is so new, would it make more sense to not even get a 64-bit processor? Would a non-64-bit processor chip be better for gaming? What's the best? The P4EE (3.4Ghz)? Is that faster than the 64-bits? If you had to buy the best processor for Half-Life 2 (for example), which one would it be? Since the 64-bits are 64 instead of 32, does that mean a 2.2Ghz 64-bit processor (the FX) would actually be like comparing a regular 4.4Ghz processor to the P4EE processor (in which case, the 64-bit would be fastest)?
 
Add-on:
When comparing fps in games, is it better to have a lower fps or a higher fps (specifically when viewing benchmarks)?

What do you think about the PC Power and Cooling TurboCool 510 Deluxe power supply?
 
I'm not against watercooling, but it's a little more risky in the fact that you're using water. I almost put a WC setup in my system, but I just don't have the balls to do it and sold it off. If you want something really cold, there are refridgeration units and liquid nitrogen setups, but I really don't know enough to guide you in the right direction. I do know that they ain't cheap: $1k isn't out of the question in some cases.
Some setups are housed with in a computer case, so you could knock out 2 items at once.

Athlon FX and Athlon 64 are both 64-bit CPU's. The 64-bit doesn't do as much right now as far as software is concerned. In the future, it allows for the native support of well over 4GB of RAM. You can have more than that, but there are some tricks that have to be implemented.

IDE channels/also used interchangably with ATA channels. They are not synonymous, but they refer to the same set of hard drive technology. They are the budget storage controllers. SATA (Serial ATA) falls into this category as well.
But, if you've got 6k to spend, I'd go SCSI. The drives are kinda pricey, but it depends on the size and speed. If you buy new, you're looking around $120-150 for a 36GB, 10k RPM drive. If your motherboard doesn't have one, you'll also need to purchase a SCSI controller card. You're looking at anywhere from about $100 to $500+ depending on the features of each card.

Registered Memory (frequently seen with ECC-Error Checking and Correction) have extra features that check for data integrity in the RAM and correct it as necessary.
The specifics elude me, so if you really want a more detailed explaination that I can provide, hit up the forums over at 2CPU. There's alot of folks there that work on some high-end stuff and know much more than I do about this stuff. There is a reason for why their is only PC2700 Registered memory, but I don't know what it is. Right now, Athlon 64, Athlon FX, and Opteron are based off the same basic core and the differences are support for SMP (Opteron only), on-die cache, socket, and price. The memory controller is integrated onto the die of these processors, and I believe that's one of the reasons the Registered RAM is required, but don't quote me on that.

BTX is the new formfactor coming out, but it's not going to be pushing the current ATX standard out overnight. How effective it'll be remains to be seen, but it is a good idea.
I really wouldn't be waiting on this right now. Maybe in 6 months I may start suggesting people wait, but not right now.

PSU: Power supply Unit.

I know there is a difference TFT are the LCD monitors. CRT (Cathode Ray Tube) are the traditional ones, made just like most of the TV's still are today. I believe 'ms' is the milisecond in this case and is something along the lines of the refresh rates on TFT's, but I'm not sure. Sony, Samsung, and Viewsonic are top brands either way. I personally like the looks of Samsung, but it varies from to . This is another thing where I'd go out and look at one and buy locally (shipping is pretty high on these things).

CD/DVD. Loading times...not really. I'm sure there is, but I can't tell. Most stuff is loaded from your hard drives into RAM and run from there.

I'm doing a wishlist at Newegg to see what damage I can do with that 6k figure. :p
 
Add-on:
What is the absolute fastest and smoothest gaming mouse on the market? I do not like ball mice, so optical is the only way to go.

I read that the fastest mouse of all is the Sniper Boomslang 2100dpi mouse. Unfortunately, it's a ball-mouse (not the mention its poor reviews due to an awkward comfort level).

I've been searching for the fastest optical mouse with google and haven't been able to find anything faster than 800dpi. I don't want a cordless mouse. I'd like an optical mouse with a cord (corded mice are generally faster, right?). Maximum PC recommends the INTELLIMOUSE EXPLORER 4.0. Unfortunately, this mouse is only 800dpi.

Also, what about megapixel MX optical sensor and high report rate? The fastest megapixel I've found is the Logitech MX510 Gaming Mouse. Personally, I like the Logitech MX510 mouse the best so far. Is there a better mouse out there?


PS. I hope you don't mind all the questions! I'll try not to get too far ahead of myself. Anyway, please respond to all the new (not replied to) posts. Thanks! =)
 
Great. Thank-you so much for all the help Big_B. You've always been an awesome friend at this community!

If you have the time and the interest, you could help me find an all-in-one case & cooling solution (to avoid installing water cooling myself - or whatever cooling).

"Add-on:
Since 64-bit technology is so new, would it make more sense to not even get a 64-bit processor? Would a non-64-bit processor chip be better for gaming? What's the best? The P4EE (3.4Ghz)? Is that faster than the 64-bits? If you had to buy the best processor for Half-Life 2 (for example), which one would it be? Since the 64-bits are 64 instead of 32, does that mean a 2.2Ghz 64-bit processor (the FX) would actually be like comparing a regular 4.4Ghz processor to the P4EE processor (in which case, the 64-bit would be fastest)?"

-= and =-

Add-on:
When comparing fps in games, is it better to have a lower fps or a higher fps (specifically when viewing benchmarks)?

What do you think about the PC Power and Cooling TurboCool 510 Deluxe power supply?
 
Thanks for the suggestion. I copied and pasted most of the questions on another forum (not to replace this one!). Hopefully I can keep both threads going from both forums. I like reading responses from various people, as often people's recommendations are different. (I especially value your input, Big_B =))
 
By the way, what happened to the fun font highlights and stuff? Didn't there used to be a store where you could purchase cool stuff with points?
 
Yeah. We upgraded the vBulletin forum software to version 3. Sniper will implement the store back when the final version is released...at least that's what I understand will happen in the future.

As far as your rig is concerned, you might find a coolness factor of dual Xeons. Dual processor setups won't be the fastest gaming machines, but you'd have one sweet rig, and might get on-board SCSI and Gigabit ethernet too. I'd have posted the wishlist, but newegg barfed on me when I logged in. I was able to do a little over 5k for ya, with everything but the monitor.

FPS=Frames per second. Higher is better. As long as you're doing over 60fps, you should be fine, although 30fps is like the minimum playable framerate.

That PC Power and Cooling PSU is very highly rated. It's like the Rolls Royce of PSU's.
 
Why would duel Xeon processors be better than a single Athlon 64, Athlon FX, or P4EE? Aren't the duel processors only good for servers? Would games be able to take advantage of them?
 
Not for servers, but if you run multiple stuff at once, this can be a real boon. You could be doing something heavy with one, and be fragging with the other. If you do a lot of multitasking, you'd see some added smoothness to the system. I suggested it mostly because of the coolness factor, tho.

The P4EE isn't a horrible chip, but it is kinda expensive. But since that door's been opened, I know Gigabyte has a Canterwood board available with SATA RAID and Ultra 320 SCSI on board. The board is like $400, but you'd have a nice base to play with and save at least one PCI slot.

Athlon 64 system
P4 3.2EE system

The biggest bottleneck in systems is the hard drive. With the Ultra 320 SCSI on the P4 board, I did all SCSI for the hard drives.

I did see some Corsair PC3200 Registered DDR, but I think they're the only ones I saw on Newegg.

If you have that large of a budget, if nothing else get a 15,000RPM SCSI drive and a controller card for it (if SCSI isn't on-board). If I had the money like that, I'd be going pretty much all SCSI.
 
"I did see some Corsair PC3200 Registered DDR, but I think they're the only ones I saw on Newegg."

4 Transcend 184 Pin 1GB ECC Registered DDR PC-2700 w/ Samsung Chipset Memory Module - Retail
Specification
Manufacturer: Transcend
Speed: DDR333(PC2700)
Type: 184 Pin DDR SDRAM
Error Checking: ECC
Registered/Unbuffered: Registered
Cas Latency: 2.5-3-3
Support Voltage: 2.5V
Bandwidth: 2.7GB/s
Organization: 128M x 72 -Bit

Why didn't you choose the PC3200?
 
The Athlon 64 system you put together looks really nice! I noticed the P4EE has the PC3200 memory listed. Does that mean that PC3200 memory can't be used for a 64-bit but it can be used for the P4EE?
 
dual processors, in some cases, are only good for servers. Dual xeon proseeors....thats a different story ;)
dual xeon= ultimate 1337 machine!
 
The PC3200 in the P4EE setup isn't Registered because it's not necessary,
and that I didn't see it until well after I'd made the list. I used Newegg as a reference, so they may not have every thing available. I didn't check, but you might just check out Crucial's site for the PC3200 Registered modules. I'd also look at stuff from Kingston.

The P4EE has all SCSI for hard drives, so your load times will be the fastest on that system. You've also got 2 U320 channels to work with, where as the A64 box has one U160 (not that it's slow). HyperMicro is pretty reputable when it comes to hard drive stuff, so you might wanna check them out as well. I personally haven't dealt with them, but they do have a pretty high rating from what I've heard.
 
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